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gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Dec 27, 2008 12:56:05 AM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse One of the claims of the ethanol enthusiast is that ethanol is "green" and will help reduce greenhouse gas emmissions Yet in several postings, many of the same ethanol enthusiasts also dispute that climate change through global warming is man made at all. Certainly the earth has warmed and cooled over the millennia, but the point is that such changes from one to the other have been over the span of thousands of years. This is VASTLY different than the current scenario. For the 10,000 years or so of the current Holocene period the co2 content has been around 280 ppm up to around 1800. Since the onset of the industrial age this began to rise but very slowly as the world population was much smaller, and only a very few countries were industrialized. Things really began to change in the late 50's and early 60's as mass car ownership began to rise, many more countries became industrialized and the world population began to rise exponentially. Thus most of the GG has occurred only since 1960 and has been rising to its current 387 ppm (2008) during this period of massive world industrial expansion, consumerism, and population growth...less than a blink of an eye in historical terms. *** (sept 25 2006) NASA STUDY FINDS WORLD WARMTH EDGING ANCIENT LEVELS A new study by NASA scientists finds that the world's temperature is reaching a level that has not been seen in thousands of years. The study, led by James Hansen of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, N.Y., along with scientists from other organizations concludes that, because of a rapid warming trend over the past 30 years, the Earth is now reaching and passing through the warmest levels seen in the last 12,000 years. Scientists concluded that these data showed the Earth has been warming at the remarkably rapid rate of approximately 0.36° Fahrenheit (0.2° Celsius) per decade for the past 30 years. "This evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," said Hansen. In recent decades, human-made greenhouse gases have become the largest climate change factor.

gougedQC

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Montreal

Posts:5,130
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Message Posted: Dec 27, 2008 12:56:05 AM

Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse

One of the claims of the ethanol enthusiast is that ethanol is "green" and will help reduce greenhouse gas emmissions Yet in several postings, many of the same ethanol enthusiasts also dispute that climate change through global warming is man made at all.

Certainly the earth has warmed and cooled over the millennia, but the point is that such changes from one to the other have been over the span of thousands of years. This is VASTLY different than the current scenario.

For the 10,000 years or so of the current Holocene period the co2 content has been around 280 ppm up to around 1800. Since the onset of the industrial age this began to rise but very slowly as the world population was much smaller, and only a very few countries were industrialized.

Things really began to change in the late 50's and early 60's as mass car ownership began to rise, many more countries became industrialized and the world population began to rise exponentially. Thus most of the GG has occurred only since 1960 and has been rising to its current 387 ppm (2008) during this period of massive world industrial expansion, consumerism, and population growth...less than a blink of an eye in historical terms.

*** (sept 25 2006) NASA STUDY FINDS WORLD WARMTH EDGING ANCIENT LEVELS

A new study by NASA scientists finds that the world's temperature is reaching a level that has not been seen in thousands of years.
The study, led by James Hansen of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, N.Y., along with scientists from other organizations concludes that, because of a rapid warming trend over the past 30 years, the Earth is now reaching and passing through the warmest levels seen in the last 12,000 years.
Scientists concluded that these data showed the Earth has been warming at the remarkably rapid rate of approximately 0.36° Fahrenheit (0.2° Celsius) per decade for the past 30 years.
"This evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," said Hansen. In recent decades, human-made greenhouse gases have become the largest climate change factor.

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Cummins2500 Champion Author Iowa Posts:3,128 Points:752,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Jul 30, 2011 3:38:05 PM Ignore Cummins2500 Report Abuse Planet Earth Does NASA Data Show Global Warming Lost in Space? link
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2011 11:34:14 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Here's an interesting article that shows that Co2 level in our atmosphere is NOT increasing at all. It shows that misinterpreting shallow ice core data is responsible for the apparent increase. The average Co2 level in the 19th century was 335 ppm, about what it is today.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jul 21, 2011 6:34:26 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse The cool thing about computer models is you can make them show anything you want them to. As long as on one gets to see the root data that was input. Remember years ago when the UN had that computer model that showed beyond any reasonable doubt that there would be 70,000,000 climate refugees in 2005? Yeah thats computer models for you. Whats even better than that is when asked, they say what computer model proving there would be 70,000,000 climate refugees? If you google search it; its there.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Jul 21, 2011 12:12:29 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse mudtoe - "With regard to the science, all we have to go on are the computer models." No, actually, we have lots of data, like ice cores, ocean floor cores, geologic sampling, and much more. The only thing pointing to AGW are the computer models, and those have been shown to include some tampering, non-objective assumptions, etc.
TadeuszK Champion Author Manitoba Posts:4,718 Points:1,197,130 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Jul 21, 2011 8:46:16 AM Ignore TadeuszK Report Abuse An interesting article on the PALEOCENE-EOCENE THERMAL MAXIMUM or PETM in the July issue of Scientific American.
fedtx Sophomore Author Texas Posts:145 Points:18,635 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Jul 3, 2011 1:49:48 PM Ignore fedtx Report Abuse I am not sure if it is hotter today than when I was a child but it seems that way. My theory is we grew up with no airconditioning so our bodies were aclimated to the weather especially the heat. now we just suffer without airconditioning.We had no choice but to sleep with maybe a fan blowing and not a ceiling fan either. I owned a square box looking fan that we put ice cubes in the top and it blew over the ice and cooled the air. i do not know what happened to it. Wish I did.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 25, 2011 8:49:33 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Your AGW phenomena are not experimentally reproducible. (not that it matters to the believers)
JetManCT Champion Author Hartford Posts:3,610 Points:716,670 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Jun 12, 2011 1:23:59 AM Ignore JetManCT Report Abuse Solar cooling is coming!!... in a few million years. Hey AlGore, more money to be made in trading solar credits.
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 23, 2011 10:01:16 PM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse gougedQC: "wow MINI and LD accusing me of getting off topic, and you guys are citing Clinton and Obama conspiracy theories... Yeah, wow. Again, you go for the red herring. I never once mentioned or implied anything about "Clinton and Obama conspiracy theories." I responded to oilpan's and ld's statements concerning liberal apologia. Ceasing to buy those bumper stickers and stopping the war demonstrations were real-world personal choices by their followers. Get it now? No, I wasn't doing like you and throwing in the kitchen sink as part of my argument. When I address your claims, I don't rip out the plumbing. I'm direct, and I provide real-world current data to back up what I say. gougedQC: "...no wonder you so readily believe there`s a conspiracy around AGW...the truth doesnt suit your fantasy." Contrary to your non sequitur apologetical claims, I didn't "readily believe there`s a conspiracy around AGW." To the contrary, as an AGW believer, I first began searching to counter some of the skeptical arguments I had been hearing. My research led to my disillusionment. Disillusionment is the real thing -- it is the opposite of fantasy. ;P [Edited by: ministorage at 4/23/2011 10:10:46 PM EST]
mudtoe Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:9,467 Points:1,285,365 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Apr 23, 2011 9:27:49 PM Ignore mudtoe Report Abuse With regard to the science, all we have to go on are the computer models. It's the computer models that are saying that global warming is real, caused by man, and will get worse and worse. However, they have failed completely when it comes to what they have predicted versus what has really happened. One of the basic tenants of scientific research is that a theory has to be able to make predictions that are testable and verifiable. To date these climate computer models have failed miserably at this, yet people persist in using them as justification for belief in man made AGW. It seems that this belief in man made AGW is more a matter of faith than of science. mudtoe
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Apr 23, 2011 8:45:32 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse lets get one thing straight, Al Gore is not a scientist, Al Gore siezed on a realistic message and is making money with it. Although the basic message is quite simply true, he has made some missteps,,,and he is hardly my hero, he is an opportunist, and I would like to through your collective heads..that I and many others are not fans of Mr Gore, although again, the basic message is valid.. So kindly stop referring to him as 'my' mr Gore. The permafrost did not melt thousands of years ago.. There were tropical planst on that land millions of years ago..yes..but that land was NOT at the north pole millions of years ago.. and perhaps you didnt read the few selections of dozens of scientific studies I posted elsewhere indicating why the permafrost melting absolutely affects you. Oh and as the sea rises, and pushes millions of people off the land around the world..where do you think those people will want to go? wow MINI and LD accusing me of getting off topic, and you guys are citing Clinton and Obama conspiracy theories... no wonder you so readily believe there`s a conspiracy around AGW...the truth doesnt suit your fantasy.
Art48 Champion Author Sacramento Posts:2,586 Points:96,805 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 7:04:46 PM Ignore Art48 Report Abuse Yes, Yes. And if you go back far enough you'll find that most of North America was covered by an inland sea and other areas were covered by desert or by lava a half mile thick. So what does this say about todays situation? Absolutely nothing. During the ice ages the seas were lower. So? Ho many years before the next ice age? Will you or your children be around? Keep the discussion current. What happened 10 thousand or a million years ago is not helping us now. No one was burning billions of tons if fossil fuels back then. There weren't CFC's damaging the ozone and the cycles you talk about took tens of thousands of years not 50 or 100 years like today. How many years according to the Vostock Ice cores did it take for an ice age to come on, peak and then warm. Much longer than the 250 years it has taken to warm this planet to a dangerous level in current history. You can't equate the two. Your comparing a quarter horse and a dragster running a quarter mile. The horse may be the fastest horse, but it isn't fast compared to the dragster. So why compare them.Your arguments are not logical. Find somthing in current history that you can compare. Something to think about:Ozone Hole linked to Climate Change
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 4:32:00 PM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse Yes, I know this personally. For six years straight, there war were anti-war protesters with signs who gathered every Friday afternoon in downtown Louisville. After Obama was elected, the anti-war demonstrations dwindled quickly -- and then disbanded altogether. I'm glad I changed my party affiliation. [Edited by: ministorage at 4/22/2011 4:33:34 PM EST]
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 4:25:43 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse ministorage - "When Bill Clinton was elected in 1992, sales of the ubiquitous 'Question Authority' bumper stickers took a nose dive." Want to hear a better one? What happened to the anti-war movement when Obama got elected? Obama hasn't ended any wars. He's just extended everything. So where did the protesters go? They never were anti-war protesters, they were anti-Bush protesters.
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 1:37:41 PM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse "Hey liberals what happened to "questioning authority"?" In real life, it only meant that one should question authority that is antithetical to liberal beliefs. When Bill Clinton was elected in 1992, sales of the ubiquitous 'Question Authority' bumper stickers took a nose dive. [Edited by: ministorage at 4/22/2011 1:43:44 PM EST]
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 11:59:56 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "You're panicking over nothing". A great example of that is the AGW pushers declaring the end of the world when the permafrost retreats north a few miles. What they totally failed to realize is all of canada and most of the US was covered with permafrost, it melted thousands of years ago and the world didn't end. I think its funny how some one can say "fear this trivial event" and they totally eat it up with out applying any critical thinking and default to believe its going to be the end of the world every time. You are like clay in the sculptors hand, but the sculptor has been replaced with an AGW Fascist with ulterior motives of money and power. Hey liberals what happened to "questioning authority"?
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 11:40:07 AM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse Sac will flood, and it will be because of something man-made--a failing, century-old levee infrastructure. [Edited by: ministorage at 4/22/2011 11:46:21 AM EST]
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 10:57:51 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Art48 - "Ah, Ignorance is true bliss. " You mean yours? Here's some actual facts.. Ocean levels can REASONABLY be expected to rise about a foot over the next century. Surprise! That's what they rose over the LAST century, too, and we're not dead. You're panicking over nothing. And spending OUR money on a problem that doesn't exist, just when we CAN'T afford it. Sacramento may flood, but it won't be from rising ocean levels.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 10:15:20 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse My house in hampton that I still own is 5 houses away from the chesapeake bay at the mouth of the hampton river. So I don't want to hear it. I am about 15 feet above sea level, only the house or 2 closest to the water have flooded since they were built in 1950.
Art48 Champion Author Sacramento Posts:2,586 Points:96,805 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2011 12:39:48 AM Ignore Art48 Report Abuse Ah, Ignorance is true bliss. Apparently many of you have not lived near the ocean or a large body of water. Just a few inches can make a big difference in storms. This occurs naturally when there is a high tide when a storm comes ashore. Now ad a few inches more to high tide and see how much further the sea in driven inland. The ocean isn't slowly rising like someone filling a bathtub. Think of it more like a bathtub with a large dog in it that doesn't want a bath. Water everywhere.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 21, 2011 3:10:16 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "Yeaj, it's funny how the ocean rises and floods cities in movies, but the ocean level hasn't changed appreciably in real life"... It is funny. According to the AGW's at least 10% of the ice has melted in the last 30-40 years, but there has been no measurable sea level rise except in a few isolated incidents and areas. [Edited by: oilpan4 at 4/21/2011 3:12:17 PM EST]
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 21, 2011 2:57:10 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Yeaj, it's funny how the ocean rises and floods cities in movies, but the ocean level hasn't changed appreciably in real life...
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 21, 2011 2:55:43 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse About 30-40 miles out side of london here they appear to be very well fed and there is plenty of drink to go around.
Hemond Champion Author Providence Posts:8,149 Points:133,185 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Apr 21, 2011 1:59:46 PM Ignore Hemond Report Abuse Those 50million people displaced by the rising sea level which just happened in 2010 as reported by the UN can come to my state. I went down to see the ocean a couple of days ago. The shore is still in the same spot its been since I was a kid. . . Oh yeah, I forgot, the UN moved the date back to 2020 now. They'll get it right eventually, and of course there's always 2030, 2040, heyheyhey.
Cummins2500 Champion Author Iowa Posts:3,128 Points:752,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Apr 21, 2011 11:49:59 AM Ignore Cummins2500 Report Abuse oilpan4, I hope you don't get hurt by any of those 70 million imaginary hungry people while your in the UK.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 3:54:21 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Lets review the alarmist AGW and other econuts past prediction: Eight Botched Environmental Forecasts I really like #7 seeing how I am in the UK right now.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 10:41:23 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Your totally lame "eroding of the tundra beaches" scores about a -3 on a scale of 1 to 10 of stuff that is important to most people. Now when your god al gore said the the polar ice caps would melt away by 2010 that got a few peoples attention. For any one who was dumb enough to believe that I am sure that made the 1 to 10 scale of stuff that matters to them. The hole in the 0-zone blinding children and giving every one skin cancer was kind of scary. eroding of the tundra beaches? I dont see any one losing any sleep over that one.
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 9:35:21 AM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse Most of your last two posts are so full of garbage they don't even warrant response, but I'll address the majors: gougedQC: "The earth is not cooler...jeez louise.." You haven't looked at the latest satellite data link (or you would not have said that). gougedQC: "...we have experienced the warmest couple of decades..." The two decades of warming you speak of are in the past. You continue to live in the past. gougedQC:" "... and its getting warmer." No, the global temperature has been cooling off from a two-decadal run; it is COOLER today than the 30 year average. Again, you fail to look at the current data. gougedQC: "fascists!?!?!? whoa..conspiracy...let me guess...and the US really didnt land a man on the moon...and JFK was assassinated by the CIA? on Johnson,s orders as plant of the Russians? the mafia? oh and i almost forgot..Obama is an al queda plant right?" ldheinz is right. You're conflating many issues, which weakens your argument. You might as well go into your kitchen and rip out your sink and throw it onto the pile also. My statement was apropos. A major tenet of fascism is government tyranny through control, taxation and hyper-regulation of industry and erosion of personal liberties--using fearmongering propaganda (a BIG LIE). The SCOTUS is not going to question the EPA--even though recent EPA actions are more than questionable. That is troubling. Get an education before ripping out your plumbing next time. gougedQC: "...though the ratio of denier..." Should you choose to use the terms 'deniers,' 'climate change deniers,' etc., ever again, make sure you are looking into a mirror. You'll see one. IMHO [Edited by: ministorage at 4/20/2011 9:44:50 AM EST]
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 8:55:08 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse gougedQC - "just because something does not immediately affect you personally doesnt mean it has no affect at all, and that peoples lives arent seriously affected" But just because something has no demonstrated effect on anyone DOES mean that we shouldn't be wasting money on it. gougedQC - "LD dont play the innocent-you know perfectly well that a small number of scientists with vested interests denied, (and ins studies paid for above and below the table) obscured, and sowed doubt about the harm of cigarette smoking, in spite of massive evidence to the contrary." Did I say otherwise? No. I just said that smoking is not part of the AGW issue. Which it isn't. gougedQC - "..exactly like the current situation with a handful of scientists who are aslo denying, obscuring sowing doubt.. " Oh, it's just you demonstrating you erroneous reasoning yet again. You're trying to create a link where none exists so that you can use the rhetorical fallacy of Guilt by Association. Rational people can see that there's no linkage and no point even if there was, gougedQC. gougedQC - "The oil, gas and coal industry has massive amounts of money available " There's a difference there. The "sky is falling" wackos are stealing OUR money to push their unproven agenda. gougedQC - "interestingly and not directly related- but showing how industry will fund media info to its benefit-" Wow! Now there's a shocker. gougedQC - "Coastal erosion is a big problem in the Arctic" Duh. Entire continents have eroded away in the past. Now tell me why I should care. Or why it isn't entirely natural.
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 6:50:17 AM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse just because something does not immediately affect you personally doesnt mean it has no affect at all, and that peoples lives arent seriously affected LD dont play the innocent-you know perfectly well that a small number of scientists with vested interests denied, (and ins studies paid for above and below the table) obscured, and sowed doubt about the harm of cigarette smoking, in spite of massive evidence to the contrary..exactly like the current situation with a handful of scientists who are aslo denying, obscuring sowing doubt.. The oil, gas and coal industry has massive amounts of money available (interestingly and not directly related- but showing how industry will fund media info to its benefit- the oil industry agency American Petrolueum Institute says US reserves are DOWN a million plus barrels- (which keeps gasoline prices high) but the Bloomberg- non oil connected fund says they are UP a million plus barrels. from the international arctic research centre= Coastal erosion is a big problem in the Arctic and the effects can impact area residents and structures as well as wildlife. In the last 50 years, Native communities that were once transient have settled in coastal areas where there is access to hunting, fishing, and transportation. Coastal communities have used sea walls and other man-made barriers to hold back erosion. These measures have worked to an extent, but as areas of open water become larger, wave and wind effects also increase and eat away at these temporary solutions. Sediment is only one part of the erosion equation. Carbon also moves from the terrestrial to the marine environment and can impact the ecology of both areas. This also affects the global carbon cycle, which is important for climate change studies. Wind, especially high wind, is one of the mechanisms researchers refer to as a 'forcing,' since it can drive other conditions such as erosion. Wind generates waves, and high waves can cause further coastal erosio :The intensity of waves is in part controlled by the amount of open water that is present. Coastal areas with large expanses of open water have much more potential for wave action than a frozen shoreline. Studies from 1950-2000 have indicated a warming trend in the Chukchi and southern Beaufort Seas, with a corresponding decrease in sea ice coverage. Longer, warmer seasons translate to more open water and more waves. Dramatic changes have taken place in coastal zones, with the edge of the summertime permanent ice pack retreating rapidly over the last several years
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 6:35:31 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse "You will always find contradicting voices.. though the ratio of denier (scientists) to those sceintists convinced of AGW is not about 1 in 1000". I am sure the fact that there are billions of dollars in research money up for grabs has nothing to do with it. If AGW paid my bills and fed my kids I would be a true believer too. "The arctic coastline.is volatile but not anywhere near recent erosion" That sounds like a huge problem. To bad its not going to effect any one.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 20, 2011 2:44:49 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse gougedQC - "The arctic coastline.is volatile but not anywhere near recent erosion- you obviously didint read it thourghly.." The fact that someone disagrees with your conclusions is not proof that they didn't read what you wrote. Or are you explaining why you still haven't commented on anything that anyone else says? gougedQC - "You will always find contradicting voices.. though the ratio of denier (scientists) to those sceintists convinced of AGW is not about 1 in 1000." What is it, then? And you left out most of the people here, us skeptics. gougedQC - "i can remember all the science and scientists, and studies thar confirmed that smoking had no ill effects on people," What does that have to do with GW? Or are you saying that the Earth is warming up from the heat of cigarettes? gougedQC - "fascists!?!?!? whoa..conspiracy...let me guess...and the US really didnt land a man on the moon...and JFK was assassinated by the CIA? on Johnson,s orders as plant of the Russians? the mafia? oh and i almost forgot..Obama is an al queda plant right?" You really have to ease up on these crazy Straw Men. You're the only one here making insane statements like that. Ease up on the caffeine and just discuss the facts. Like the fact that the glaciers covering North America melted all on their own 11,000 years ago without mankind doing anything to cause it. gougedQC - "man you gotta love the national enquirer and pravda " Are you reading the National Enquirer now? Because you're the only one to mention it. As for Pravda, if it's so bad you must be a lot worse, because you still haven't been able to find a single fault with what they said. Check out the movie Cool It. I caught it on Netflix, and it's about a guy who believes in AGW, just not in panic and scare tactics. He's got some excellent suggestions. One comment of his is that in the next 100 years the sea level is reasonably expected to rise about a foot. That's what it rose over the last 100 years, too. [Edited by: ldheinz at 4/20/2011 2:46:21 AM EST]
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 10:21:40 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse The arctic coastline.is volatile but not anywhere near recent erosion- you obviously didint read it thourghly...without the ice to act as a buffer, wave action is hetiing the land...which in turn..as permafrost and warmer, is melting and turning into easily eroded soft soil and muc.The earth is not cooler...jeez louise.. we have experienced the warmest couple of decades and its getting warmer. The study was 2007..and guess what its similar to studies done earlier and later.. You will always find contradicting voices.. though the ratio of denier (scientists) to those sceintists convinced of AGW is not about 1 in 1000. i can remember all the science and scientists, and studies thar confirmed that smoking had no ill effects on people, fascists!?!?!? whoa..conspiracy...let me guess...and the US really didnt land a man on the moon...and JFK was assassinated by the CIA? on Johnson,s orders as plant of the Russians? the mafia? oh and i almost forgot..Obama is an al queda plant right? man you gotta love the national enquirer and pravda
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 7:07:30 PM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse The sad thing is, we may be morally right and we may have more concern for scientific integrity, but the fascists are winning. Supreme Court signals it will toss out global-warming lawsuit This one issue is what started my disillusionment and why my last day as a Democrat was December 31, 2010. [Edited by: ministorage at 4/19/2011 7:08:42 PM EST]
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 5:37:03 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Its just a fad. If google was around in the 1980s they would be pushing the hole in the 0-zone scam.
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 12:53:13 PM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse Thanks ld. My understanding was that Google caches lasted indefinitely (that is unless someone asks for something to be removed). Perhaps that can be explained below. Google morphed into Co2ogle, taking on the skeptics of the Co2-centric AGW hypothesis Open letter to Google [Edited by: ministorage at 4/19/2011 12:56:16 PM EST]
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 12:02:09 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse The UN's climate refugee page is still available from The Internet Archive's Wayback Machine. There ARE other resources than just google, you know....
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 11:56:11 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse Panama19 - "Not a great trick, considering that 400 years ago we were in the depths of the Little Ice Age." I've seen the same trick being used with regard to Lake Michigan water levels. The level is compared to the mid-70s and is much lower. This is used to indicate that overpopulation is using up natural resources. However, my parents lived on the Chicago lakefront in the mid-70s, and there was a huge erosion problem then from abnormally high water levels. The current water levels are historically normal.
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 11:06:10 AM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse Cummins: "When I read Time magazine’s shock headline “Tax Study: Scientists More Likely to Cheat Than Lawyers” I laughed it off due to the cognitive dissonance that it caused me." Cummins: "The power of grant money is such that many are no more ethical than the corporate toadies in Eric Hiaasen Books, which he refers to as 'Biostitutes.'" Shhhh! You might begin to crack the fragile paradigms of some the more incredibly naive. ;)
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 10:52:18 AM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse Cummins, thank you for the reminder that the UN got caught removing the 50 million climate refugee prediction. UN Caught Scrubbing Embarrassing Climate Refugee Prediction Just last week, you could still find it on Google cache. But, this week, the google cache has been removed. Disillusionment is a good thing. [Edited by: ministorage at 4/19/2011 10:53:48 AM EST]
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 10:36:38 AM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse gougedQC, RE: your latest "Stannford" [sic] study: Your "most emminent [sic] panel of scientist[s] in the US" study was published in 2007 with data no more recent than 2006. Again, gougedQC, your global warming data are out-of-date. An interesting caveat to your unlinked study [which I found]: "After last-minute negotiations among the IPCC's lead authors, they deleted the qualifier "very high confidence" (a greater than 90% chance) from the statement regarding the effects of regional climate change on physical and biological systems around the world." Well, gee, so that was one of the studies that had to be tempered because of its incredulous claims before it made it into the vaunted Climate Bible! Well, many were not caught in time and subsequently the 2007 AR4 received an "F" by a citizen panel that found innacuracies and gray literature throughout So, what does the LATEST research say about flooding? Bouziotas et al. presented a paper at the EGU a few weeks ago (PDF) and concluded: "Analysis of trends and of aggregated time series on climatic (30-year) scale does not indicate consistent trends worldwide. Despite common perception, in general, the detected trends are more negative (less intense floods in most recent years) than positive. Similarly, Svensson et al. (2005) and Di Baldassarre et al. (2010) did not find systematical change neither in flood increasing or decreasing numbers nor change in flood magnitudes in their analysis." IOW, floods are in reality not increasing, but, based on failed/failing predictions, most people have come to believe their has been an increase. RE: your Arctic coast study--ask geomorphologists about the Arctic coastline; you would be told the Arctic coast is one of the more volatile regions in the world, constantly changing, shifting, freezing, thawing, refreezing. The thaw/freeze cycles are brutal on coastlines. Though the article does not once blame global warming, I wouldn't be surprised if it was funded by climate change research dollars. It is similar as it is full of dire predictions questions for the future. NASA's James Hansen predicted that by 2010, the global temperature was to be two (2) degrees warmer than today, but the global temperature is now LOWER than when he made those predictions back in the 1980s--it is BELOW the entire satellite mean What data? Temperatures measured from different, deep layers of the atmosphere. How? Monthly updated global temperature datasets from eleven instruments flying on eleven different satellites, including the Advanced Microwave Sounding Unit (AMSU-A) flying on NASA’s Aqua satellite. Who am I going to believe? First, I'm going to believe current data over old data and failed predictions. And I'll weigh data from scientists who are not beholden to CO2-centric global warming theory funding, and predictive models which continue to fail en masse. The cream always rises to the surface. The junk continues to fall to the bottom. IMHO [Edited by: ministorage at 4/19/2011 10:38:20 AM EST]
Cummins2500 Champion Author Iowa Posts:3,128 Points:752,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 10:30:00 AM Ignore Cummins2500 Report Abuse BTW right now I wish I had some of that global warming instead of looking at 1 plus inch of new snow on the ground in the last 3 hours and the forecast is calling for 3-7 inches of snow in the next 24 hours. I guess I will not be planting sugar snap peas in my garden this weekend as planned.
Cummins2500 Champion Author Iowa Posts:3,128 Points:752,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 10:24:19 AM Ignore Cummins2500 Report Abuse Anyone recall that the UN hired Norman Myers to examine what impact Global Warming would have on human habitations. He claimed we would have some 50 Million Environmental refugees by 2010, to bad no one find a single one of those 50 million refugees. From red state: So not only is Norman Myers wrong; he was so far off on his predictions that he missed the direction of the population change in every single area he predicted except for New Orleans Louisiana. But the UN then compounds the arrogance by attempting to scrub all evidence that Myers made his claim from their website. And then, after being spectacularly wrong, after miserably botching their attempted cover-up, they double down on the stupid. When I read Time magazine’s shock headline “Tax Study: Scientists More Likely to Cheat Than Lawyers” I laughed it off due to the cognitive dissonance that it caused me. My opinion of the legal profession was such that I didn’t believe the claim was remotely possible. Then I remember the iniquitous “Hockey Stick Curve”, Harry_Read_Me.Txt, and “Hide The Decline.” At that point, Norman Myers’ claim of “50 million environmental refugees” was what Pink Floyd would call another brick in the wall. Many scientists today are hired guns primarily remunerated to write and produce ideological propaganda in the service of preconceived scientific results. The power of grant money is such that many are no more ethical than the corporate toadies in Eric Hiaasen Books, which he refers to as “Biostitutes.”
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Apr 18, 2011 9:53:58 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse I am still not seeing a down side. Ooohhh so it the warmest its been in 400+ years. Just thank your god (al gore) that its not the coldest its been in 400+ years or you wouldn't have to invent a disaster. "disappearance has significant implications for both the ecosystem and the economic and social life of the North" Translation: not a problem for 99% of the worlds population.
Panama19 Champion Author Louisville Posts:25,241 Points:2,540,385 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 18, 2011 9:43:33 PM Ignore Panama19 Report Abuse gougedQC, "A panel convened by the U.S National Research Council, the nation's premier science policy body, in June 2006 voiced a 'high level of confidence' that Earth is the hottest it has been in at least 400 years..." Not a great trick, considering that 400 years ago we were in the depths of the Little Ice Age. "...and possibly even the last 2,000 years" No, the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) or Medieval Climate Optimum 1,000 years ago was warmer than it is today. There were wineries in England and farming in Greenland during the MWP. Somehow the polar bears survived that warm spell too.
Panama19 Champion Author Louisville Posts:25,241 Points:2,540,385 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 18, 2011 9:32:05 PM Ignore Panama19 Report Abuse gougedQC, "Now who you gonna believe-some anonymous guy called ministorage, or the most emminent panel of scientist in the US, and a team of expert international scientists from several arctic countris" ministorage. He doesn't have a political axe to grind, doesn't depend on research grants from those who do, and he does excellent research and shows his work. And you?
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Apr 18, 2011 8:57:53 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse Now who you gonna believe-some anonymous guy called ministorage, or the most emminent panel of scientist in the US, and a team of expert international scientists from several arctic countris The following from Stanfford University: Global Warming -- a gradual increase in planet-wide temperatures -- is now well documented and accepted by scientists as fact. A panel convened by the U.S National Research Council, the nation's premier science policy body, in June 2006 voiced a "high level of confidence" that Earth is the hottest it has been in at least 400 years, and possibly even the last 2,000 years. Studies indicate that the average global surface temperature has increased by approximately 0.5-1.0°F (0.3-0.6°C) over the last century. This is the largest increase in surface temperature in the last 1,000 years and scientists are predicting an even greater increase over this century. This warming is largely attributed to the increase of greenhouse gases (primarily carbon dioxide and methane) in the Earth's upper atmosphere caused by human burning of fossil fuels, industrial, farming, and deforestation activities. The following on climate change Arctic coastlines are on the retreat, especially in Canada, and their disappearance has significant implications for both the ecosystem and the economic and social life of the North, according to a group of international researchers. The 2010 study, by a consortium of more than 30 scientists from 10 countries, was released Sunday in the journal Estuaries and Coasts. The consortium includes researchers from the German-based Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research The researchers say rising temperatures in the North due to climate change are causing coastal sea ice to disappear, leaving coasts unprotected against the eroding force of waves The study found that on average, the Arctic coastline is retreating by half a metre a year. Arctic Ice going... shore washing away
ministorage Champion Author Louisville Posts:9,220 Points:818,970 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2011 11:41:53 AM Ignore ministorage Report Abuse oilpan: "I am still waiting for the polar ice caps to melt in 2010." I wonder if any of these 120 sea captains stranded in the ice for over a month think there's not enough ice ldheinz: "...we're much better off with global warming than a new ice age, that's for sure." I like warm; history shows its much better (including Vostok). Negative feedback loops show CO2 levels won't effect temperatures, up or down, so we are left with economy-strangling regulations designed to send us back to the Dark Ages. Odds are incredibly stacked we're near the end of the Holocene; mother nature will be sending us back there anyway. Evil eco-fascists and their idiot Chicken Little followers seem hell-bent on hastening it.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,033 Points:306,440 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2011 11:34:34 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse The AGW pushers really dont like talking about what happens when the earth cools by a few degrees.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,007 Points:2,354,870 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2011 11:21:56 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse I'm still waiting for mass starvation by 1980. People used to starve to death, but starvation has essentially been eliminated from the planet. The only place that there's a lack of food is where it has been deliberately created for political reasons. From that perspective we're much better off with global warming than a new ice age, that's for sure.