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anti0918 Rookie Author Akron Posts:67 Points:237,270 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 8:54:57 AM Ignore anti0918 Report Abuse A consciousness (apart from a brain) acted (apart from time and motion) to create all that exists (apart from his own existence). The existence of a consciousness depends entirely on the pre-existence of a functioning brain. Any claim to the contrary is arbitrary and may be disregarded. To act involves interacting with other entities in existence. Action involves motion which proceeds in time. Any claim that action can occur apart from time, motion, and interaction with existing entities, is arbitrary and may be disregarded. To exist is to be part of all that exists - i.e. existence. An existent cannot precede existence, and any claim to the contrary is arbitrary. If a creator being is claimed to have existed in existence, that merely raises the question of who created the creator being. Existence simply is. It was not created - the concept of "creation" cannot be coherently applied to the totality of existence. Existence has simply changed in form as individual existents have interacted according to their nature. [Edited by: anti0918 at 3/12/2012 8:56:17 AM EST]

anti0918

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Akron

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 8:54:57 AM

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A consciousness (apart from a brain) acted (apart from time and motion) to create all that exists (apart from his own existence).

The existence of a consciousness depends entirely on the pre-existence of a functioning brain. Any claim to the contrary is arbitrary and may be disregarded.

To act involves interacting with other entities in existence. Action involves motion which proceeds in time. Any claim that action can occur apart from time, motion, and interaction with existing entities, is arbitrary and may be disregarded.

To exist is to be part of all that exists - i.e. existence. An existent cannot precede existence, and any claim to the contrary is arbitrary. If a creator being is claimed to have existed *in* existence, that merely raises the question of who created the creator being.

Existence simply is. It was not created - the concept of "creation" cannot be coherently applied to the totality of existence. Existence has simply changed in form as individual existents have interacted according to their nature.

[Edited by: anti0918 at 3/12/2012 8:56:17 AM EST]

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timothyu Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:14,680 Points:175,405 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 12:31:14 PM Ignore timothyu Report Abuse "so it must have come from somewhere/something. The argument is about where/what. " God explained it when He simply said "I am". There is a difference in coming from somewhere and simply being. There was a saying about being on the bus or off the bus... but the secret was to be the bus.
erbyfub Champion Author Raleigh Posts:8,738 Points:1,678,110 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 12:17:49 PM Ignore erbyfub Report Abuse To address the original post: 1. An absence of evidence of brain-free consciousness is not the same as evidence of an absence of such. Thus the claim that such a case would be a contradiction is lacking in evidence, and thus (according to your criteria) arbitrary. 2. Actually, it is possible to act without motion or change. For example, someone holding onto the ledge of a cliff is acting and interacting with other entities but may not actually be moving or changing in relation to those entities. But I'm not sure that lack of time is a completely accurate understanding of a creator being either, so this may not be completely relevant. 3. Saying that a creator created existence itself would indeed be a contradiction, if anyone were saying that; since no one is saying that, this is a straw man. Anyway, some sort of creator of the universe is required, whether sentient or not, since according to science the universe had a beginning, so it must have come from somewhere/something. The argument is about where/what.
timothyu Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:14,680 Points:175,405 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Jun 10, 2012 11:39:27 AM Ignore timothyu Report Abuse ... and with Jesus, God incorporated Himself into the software.
geekguy Champion Author Seattle Posts:3,504 Points:1,317,095 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Jun 8, 2012 1:21:08 AM Ignore geekguy Report Abuse w@ntonsoup, while your choice of rules may be that a Creator who made time, who made physical laws, is one you believe is detached, I choose to disagree with you. Such a Creator is so Almighty, so beyond human limitations and failings, that worshiping Him is a highly logical outcome. Just because He created and is therefore capable of not being bound to our reality, does not mean He is detached and disinterested. When I write software, I can exist completely apart from it, but I choose to be involved in how it runs, where it's deployed, how it's configured, and make sure it runs as it should. I create its rules, and stay involved in its "life". An overly simplistic example but I believe it's illustrative.
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Jun 7, 2012 6:02:26 PM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse geekguy - I have a simple question for you. If your creator lives outside of what we perceive as time and space and reality, then why bother thinking about this creator? You've removed "him" so far from reality so that he is removed from logical paradoxes, that he is irrelevant. Either god lives here on earth and is subject to the laws of the universe, or he lives outside it and isn't worth worrying about. Either way, no reason to believe in god.
geekguy Champion Author Seattle Posts:3,504 Points:1,317,095 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: May 10, 2012 2:25:54 PM Ignore geekguy Report Abuse anti0918, you're making a set of constraints that is not justified. You are constraining the Creator to being in His creation. To amplify: the Creator made space, time, energy, physical laws, causality, everything we see, hear, touch, and experience. Since He created space & time, He is not constrained by them, they are constrained by Him. When you say "The existence of a consciousness depends entirely on the pre-existence of a functioning brain", you are making assumptions of unidimensional time for example. Although our brains can't handle multidimensional time as a concept well, a Creator would not be bound by our limitations. When I create a piece of code, I establish the limitations it has. I'm not constrained by the number of RAM chips or speed of the disk heads, my code is constrained. Just as the Creator is not constrained by our laws of physics, His creation is constrained. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)"
anti0918 Rookie Author Akron Posts:67 Points:237,270 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Mar 19, 2012 10:27:50 AM Ignore anti0918 Report Abuse "Arbitrary" - that word does not mean what you think it means. I did not say the assertion was impossible, just contrary to existing evidence, and without any evidence to support it. Thus it is arbitrary, and one may freely disregard it.
erbyfub Champion Author Raleigh Posts:8,738 Points:1,678,110 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2012 10:28:44 AM Ignore erbyfub Report Abuse I'll add one more: claims of contradiction based on ignorance are arbitrary and may be disregarded.