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Hydrogen could boost gas mileage in cars; UNF prof skeptical

Florida Times-Union -- With gas prices eclipsing $4 per gallon for the first time since 2008, the technology of hydrogen-to-internal combustion engines is gaining traction.

Littlefoot Integrations run by Vaughn Paul of Bryceville is beginning to make some headway with hydrogen technology he says can increase gas mileage by 30 percent to as much as 70 percent.

Paul bills his device as “water for fuel.” The system he offers — $599 for smaller engines and $799 for engines larger than 5.7 liters — is a hydrogen extraction device that boosts a regular gasoline or diesel-fed engine with hydrogen.

“The goal of the product is to increase gas mileage,” Paul said. “We supplement gasoline or diesel with hydrogen. … It basically creates hydrogen from water.”

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Submitted Apr 22, 2012 By: aservant

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MopedTime All-Star Author Michigan Posts:769 Points:362,035 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:42:22 PM Ignore MopedTime Report Abuse It's too bad the internal combustion engines were highly inefficient energy-wise. Did anyone invent pills to help improve gas mileage yet?
rickone All-Star Author Detroit Posts:555 Points:395,385 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:41:35 PM Ignore rickone Report Abuse Interesting - Thanks for posting.
2gjh Champion Author North Dakota Posts:3,174 Points:2,447,600 Joined:Nov 2003	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:41:12 PM Ignore 2gjh Report Abuse Lets hear from an independent evaluation
twinfanMN Champion Author Minnesota Posts:1,633 Points:457,255 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:34:07 PM Ignore twinfanMN Report Abuse Can the world afford to start burning millions of barrels of water per day?
snell snail Champion Author Atlanta Posts:5,033 Points:2,600,150 Joined:Feb 2004	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:33:55 PM Ignore snell snail Report Abuse ...this post too old.......
ddaz46 All-Star Author Akron Posts:551 Points:188,580 Joined:Jun 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:32:20 PM Ignore ddaz46 Report Abuse Is there a $400 dollar rebate?????
Tucker1961 Champion Author Seattle Posts:2,157 Points:363,170 Joined:Jun 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:27:36 PM Ignore Tucker1961 Report Abuse nope
hubie24 Veteran Author Michigan Posts:315 Points:204,080 Joined:Jul 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:26:56 PM Ignore hubie24 Report Abuse I wont believe it until i see it.
babugp Veteran Author Philadelphia Posts:339 Points:76,685 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:26:12 PM Ignore babugp Report Abuse yey
ACTown Champion Author Oregon Posts:2,349 Points:1,432,120 Joined:Jun 2007	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:26:09 PM Ignore ACTown Report Abuse That is great. please replace the E85.
cehend Champion Author Maryland Posts:1,725 Points:461,525 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:25:06 PM Ignore cehend Report Abuse Interesting article.
bbreff Champion Author Atlanta Posts:9,863 Points:2,571,340 Joined:Jun 2005	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:23:24 PM Ignore bbreff Report Abuse COULD - someone is just putting this to enhance to use of hydrogen in cars
mnorthwood13 Champion Author Michigan Posts:1,385 Points:763,935 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:22:17 PM Ignore mnorthwood13 Report Abuse We've had this discussion in my science & technology class and the jury was out on a result.
UC2 Champion Author Ventura Posts:1,305 Points:318,255 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:19:58 PM Ignore UC2 Report Abuse prove it
mgune9 All-Star Author Dallas Posts:914 Points:200,395 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:19:05 PM Ignore mgune9 Report Abuse ok - heard of this for years -- if it really works why hasn't someone put it in place -- sounds "fishy" again to me
treeguy Veteran Author Wisconsin Posts:268 Points:656,035 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:16:17 PM Ignore treeguy Report Abuse Pig Oil will NOT let this happen.
edgarCA Champion Author Oakland Posts:1,581 Points:241,770 Joined:Jun 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:13:46 PM Ignore edgarCA Report Abuse Only problem is facing those who control the market in transportation...
bevmill Champion Author Georgia Posts:2,592 Points:602,495 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:12:56 PM Ignore bevmill Report Abuse worth a try.
insightcruzer All-Star Author Oakland Posts:552 Points:191,145 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:11:32 PM Ignore insightcruzer Report Abuse it sounds as though there hasn't really been enough study to determine how much fuel it saves per gallon, what the safety risks are, and how it affects the car over all. I would think that with the demand for greater fuel efficiency, car manufacturers would be utilizing this system if it really were viable and produced the "bang" for the buck, as opposed to just a bang
Steady325 Champion Author Orange County Posts:2,593 Points:1,462,010 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:06:02 PM Ignore Steady325 Report Abuse go for it
YarnDragon Rookie Author Toronto Posts:82 Points:45,595 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:05:52 PM Ignore YarnDragon Report Abuse This is the kind of thing that should be researched now...and quickly!!!
sparky808 Champion Author Honolulu Posts:3,013 Points:600,660 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:57:29 PM Ignore sparky808 Report Abuse Thank you for posting.
uptherefiners Champion Author Chicago Posts:5,048 Points:1,002,000 Joined:Jun 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:56:19 PM Ignore uptherefiners Report Abuse it will get swept under the rug
ScottTee Champion Author Detroit Posts:4,401 Points:1,065,645 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:54:44 PM Ignore ScottTee Report Abuse we will see
Agarre Champion Author Richmond Posts:1,335 Points:263,785 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:51:12 PM Ignore Agarre Report Abuse Hopefully
PathTrack Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,204 Points:134,855 Joined:Jan 2005	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:48:00 PM Ignore PathTrack Report Abuse Hydrogen is very expensive to make. Currently it takes more energy to create it than it is worth.
Amanstrom Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:1,857 Points:539,780 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:45:50 PM Ignore Amanstrom Report Abuse Interesting
carefrey Champion Author Orlando Posts:5,545 Points:1,161,435 Joined:Sep 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:44:55 PM Ignore carefrey Report Abuse Lets use it!
LaVonneK Champion Author Iowa Posts:2,955 Points:628,700 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:44:48 PM Ignore LaVonneK Report Abuse Oh.
InvisiBill Rookie Author Michigan Posts:45 Points:887,050 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:44:01 PM Ignore InvisiBill Report Abuse midci7 said "It does not work. The on-board computer will adjust the fuel injectors to inject more gasoline into the cylinders when the fuel to air ratio is off." The idea here is that you're using an alternate fuel in place of gasoline. Depending on exactly how the system is set up and how the hydrogen burns, the ECU may or may not compensate (in an unwanted way) for the change. nigelb said "Does the on-board computer distinguish between hydrogen gas and the mixture of gas that makes up air? I don't really know, but I doubt it does." The ECU determines the fuel mixture by using the O2 sensor to see how much oxygen is in the exhaust. By measuring the amount of O2 in the exhaust, it can tell if it has the proper A/F ratio in the combustion chamber. It then adjusts the amount of fuel from the injectors to result in the correct ratio of oxygen in the exhaust. You can trick the ECU into providing more fuel (for high-performance applications) by simply adding a resistor to the O2, which essentially makes the sensor read high, so the ECU corrects by adding more fuel. Depending on the exact qualities of the exhaust from the hydrogen, the O2 sensor may or may not read correctly. Let's oversimplify and say the exhaust is now 70% from gasoline and 30% from hydrogen. It may see all of that correctly, and supply 70% of the gas it was before, since the hydrogen is now supplying 30% of the power. Or it may see only the 70% from the gasoline and think it needs to add the other 30% back in as more fuel (what midci7 was describing). Adding hydrogen as an alternate fuel definitely could work, but many fuel system tweaks are also automatically compensated for (i.e. completely undone) by the ECU.As for the impossibility of onboard hydrogen generation increasing mileage due to the number of conversions which are physically incapable of being 100% efficient, that's somewhat irrelevant. Your alternator is always spinning and generating electricity. It does require power from the engine, but not much. A few searches turned up some estimates of 1-5hp for a typical modern 100A alternator. If it's generating more power than your car's electronics are using, then the extra could instead be going to a hydrogen system "for free" (or nearly free even if there was a bit more load on the alternator). There's a difference between tapping into an existing electrical system and setting up a new ICE spinning an alternator to generate electricity to get hydrogen to run an ICE. I'm more concerned with the effect of burning hydrogen in an engine designed for gasoline, as well as the fine print for these hydrogen systems like MacDad614 mentioned. Many cars are coming with fairly low-power alternators as it is (try turning on your high beams, turning the steering wheel to get the power steering pump going, and then roll down your power window). I didn't see a statement of how much power the hydrogen generator uses, but it could cause problems if it's too much for your electrical system to handle.
EMoe57 Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:4,627 Points:1,017,990 Joined:Apr 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:42:57 PM Ignore EMoe57 Report Abuse Prove it is effective AND inexpensive and the world will beat a path to your door.
BooHooMI Champion Author Michigan Posts:1,556 Points:344,610 Joined:Sep 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:40:43 PM Ignore BooHooMI Report Abuse hmm...............skeptical...very...
friday21 Champion Author Toronto Posts:5,363 Points:687,335 Joined:Jul 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:39:50 PM Ignore friday21 Report Abuse Ok
Romey08 Champion Author Virginia Posts:6,311 Points:1,436,490 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:37:38 PM Ignore Romey08 Report Abuse need more proof of effectiveness
Buck_on_Bass Champion Author Tennessee Posts:7,584 Points:1,458,010 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:36:35 PM Ignore Buck_on_Bass Report Abuse Some careful testing in needed to verify the claims.
BeulahME Champion Author Maine Posts:1,107 Points:444,485 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:32:35 PM Ignore BeulahME Report Abuse No ethanol and mileage will go up!
gknee09 All-Star Author Philadelphia Posts:985 Points:824,640 Joined:Jul 2009	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:31:55 PM Ignore gknee09 Report Abuse what's up with Boby, does he have dementia? he still thinks thinks Bush is in office
sammy518 Champion Author Austin Posts:2,589 Points:539,790 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:31:38 PM Ignore sammy518 Report Abuse ok
OGW Champion Author London Posts:5,334 Points:1,534,725 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:28:30 PM Ignore OGW Report Abuse It doesn't create hydrogen from water, water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen so it may separate the hydro and remove it from the water. It sounds like there is much more work to be done there.
Suzzoom Champion Author Nevada Posts:2,378 Points:508,090 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:26:57 PM Ignore Suzzoom Report Abuse The Hindenburg was hydrogen-powered. It went kablooie.
032946 Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:19,870 Points:4,045,995 Joined:Oct 2001	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:26:19 PM Ignore 032946 Report Abuse I will have to waite and see on that one. Seeing is believing!
Sarge10 All-Star Author Detroit Posts:862 Points:174,100 Joined:Feb 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:21:44 PM Ignore Sarge10 Report Abuse I wouldn't us it. I'll wait till they get all the kinks out!
rampower80 Champion Author Kentucky Posts:2,054 Points:463,865 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:21:22 PM Ignore rampower80 Report Abuse and only drive up the average cost of a vehicle to six figures plus.
dollarwatcher Champion Author Wisconsin Posts:7,955 Points:1,537,170 Joined:Mar 2007	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:19:02 PM Ignore dollarwatcher Report Abuse Snake oil.
njerald Champion Author Seattle Posts:7,839 Points:1,626,000 Joined:Oct 2007	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:18:13 PM Ignore njerald Report Abuse More pie in the sky...this has been around for years.
RBob Champion Author Portland Posts:3,384 Points:2,349,825 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:17:21 PM Ignore RBob Report Abuse We have been hearing this claim for decades from someone wanting to market some wonder device and usually from Florida.
BKool Champion Author Michigan Posts:5,273 Points:1,902,255 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:13:42 PM Ignore BKool Report Abuse All the brew ha ha over mpg neglects the thousands of petroleum products we use daily. Where are the "alternative" products? BTW, con men fulfil the needs of the people faster than entrepreneurs do. Remember, let the buyer beware.
RR52DE Champion Author Delaware Posts:2,415 Points:403,015 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:12:49 PM Ignore RR52DE Report Abuse These stories always come out when gas is high.
rxman1 Champion Author Toledo Posts:9,557 Points:1,863,845 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:11:50 PM Ignore rxman1 Report Abuse We will have to see how well this works out.
gobux10 Champion Author Ohio Posts:3,184 Points:681,910 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:10:53 PM Ignore gobux10 Report Abuse wait till
humblepie Champion Author Toledo Posts:34,304 Points:2,373,320 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:10:40 PM Ignore humblepie Report Abuse academic pipedreams