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"Black Box" In Your Car Raising Questions

Columbus Dispatch -- Drivers might want to think twice before telling a police officer they were going the speed limit right before a crash.

Their cars might know better. Crash-scene reconstructionists increasingly mine data from “black boxes,” more technically known by such names as “air-bag control” or “system deployment modules,” that capture information a few seconds before and after a crash.

Data can be as simple as vehicle speed and as complex as engine speed, speed by an individual wheel and whether the brakes were applied.

And, after new rules from the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration take effect next year and mandate that new vehicles with the modules record certain data points, getting consistent information could become easier.

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Submitted Apr 29, 2012 By: fitteacher

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apiergallini Veteran Author North Carolina Posts:389 Points:249,955 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 11:58:28 PM Ignore apiergallini Report Abuse @aquarinut You're right. Clearly, I managed to comment on the substance of your second paragraph without actually reading it. That makes perfect sense. The data IS accurate, even when you hit a pothole, etc. The point is that when your wheel is spinning at 100 MPH, it's important to know whether you had traction on the road, lost traction on the road, or weren't even touching the road. That doesn't mean the data is invalid - it means it's been taken out of context. @ExplorerWA The black boxes, as explained, only track wheel, engine, and brake information (maybe a couple other things). There is currently no GPS, so it has no idea where you are, or where you're going. This is like saying that your speedometer, tachometer, and brakes know where you are and where you're going. All the black boxes would do is record things you car already "knows." Regarding who owns the data, I'm sure you do. You also own the data on your computer, too. But that doesn't mean that if you use your computer to commit a crime that the police can't get a warrant to access your data. Likewise, when you're in an accident, you can either give police access to your data, or they can probably get a warrant to take it. There's really no difference. Also, unless you're in an accident, there's no data to take or use, so you're actually protected better by the black box than you are with your computer, which keeps records of everything, regardless of whether you commit a crime. @mwc407 You'd like to think so, but I'd be willing to bet that at least a few of them would sacrifice that knowledge. @MusicalMan7 I agree, but having the black box in the car doesn't automatically give anyone access to it - they still need either your permission, or a warrant. @BuckyTJones Agreed. Sometimes, they're nobody's fault. Sometimes, they're everybody's fault. Sometimes, they're only one person's fault. But what's the harm in letting the police and insurance companies figure out which is correct? As far as I know, the insurance company of the at-fault driver pays for the accident, assuming he's insured. That wouldn't change by being able to tell more easily who was at fault. If you're an average driver, you'll be at fault as often as not. If you're a good driver, you'll benefit, because you'll be able to show more easily you weren't at fault. If you're a bad driver, then you'll suffer, which will give you the incentive to either drive more carefully, or you'll price yourself out of insurance. [Edited by: apiergallini at 5/1/2012 12:02:12 AM EST]
sjf238 Champion Author Philadelphia Posts:1,215 Points:648,705 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 4:39:23 PM Ignore sjf238 Report Abuse Interesting.
BuckyTJones Champion Author Salt Lake City Posts:4,932 Points:967,950 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 10:21:10 AM Ignore BuckyTJones Report Abuse So whats the point? Does this give a reason for the insurance companies not to pay? I really feel that most of the time, accidents are just that, accidents. I don't think some one wakes up and says, who's day besides my own can I ruin.
Penny_Pincher Veteran Author Columbus Posts:435 Points:22,695 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 9:44:48 AM Ignore Penny_Pincher Report Abuse So, the big news is that people can't lie anymore? I'm not sure what to think of that.
jorobins538 Champion Author Chicago Posts:4,742 Points:643,570 Joined:Sep 2009	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 9:18:49 AM Ignore jorobins538 Report Abuse ok
bicycle1966 All-Star Author Akron Posts:606 Points:414,360 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 9:14:57 AM Ignore bicycle1966 Report Abuse the data that could be gotten could be very useful -- but the question is: Useful to whom? and To What End? Not sure how I feel about this.
jeffbone Champion Author Virginia Posts:1,403 Points:413,875 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 9:09:46 AM Ignore jeffbone Report Abuse More government intrustion. Help stop this crap: http://www.motorists.org/ [Edited by: jeffbone at 4/30/2012 9:10:03 AM EST]
the1roadhog Champion Author Atlanta Posts:9,949 Points:2,079,755 Joined:Jun 2007	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 9:03:58 AM Ignore the1roadhog Report Abuse About one's personal freedoms????
BEGTWO Champion Author Maryland Posts:2,072 Points:749,890 Joined:Sep 2010	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 8:53:08 AM Ignore BEGTWO Report Abuse BIG Brother is always watching!!!
alex395 Champion Author Louisville Posts:2,082 Points:280,255 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 8:18:05 AM Ignore alex395 Report Abuse Net equivalent of being watched all the time. What is next cameras in the bathroom so they can make sure we don't excessively pollute.
jrs4125 Champion Author Indiana Posts:2,888 Points:617,495 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 8:06:51 AM Ignore jrs4125 Report Abuse Big brother knows.
bondo Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:3,636 Points:788,185 Joined:May 2001	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 7:36:48 AM Ignore bondo Report Abuse Big brother.
gandalfthegrey1 Champion Author Houston Posts:1,184 Points:384,785 Joined:Feb 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 7:34:00 AM Ignore gandalfthegrey1 Report Abuse Given that we got along fine w/o these for a century, do we really ANOTHER invasion of privacy so the insurance companies can make more money? Does anyone believe insurance companies are any better than big oil? They're not.
TerrySawchuk All-Star Author British Columbia Posts:850 Points:305,395 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 7:17:19 AM Ignore TerrySawchuk Report Abuse I like it!
danny999 Champion Author Florida Posts:8,853 Points:1,664,810 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:23:11 AM Ignore danny999 Report Abuse The black box is needed to save lives,like cameras at red lights.Some one/something has to control the speed freaks who don't care about anyone else.
JohnofGB Champion Author Flint Posts:5,556 Points:1,122,920 Joined:Feb 2010	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:22:19 AM Ignore JohnofGB Report Abuse These boxes have been around for years. And now they are big concern????
Wally3023 Champion Author Pennsylvania Posts:2,111 Points:556,100 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:20:50 AM Ignore Wally3023 Report Abuse Big brother is coming to a car near you
gabisgram Champion Author Michigan Posts:2,316 Points:936,050 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 5:53:14 AM Ignore gabisgram Report Abuse We just don't trust each other.
2bigtanks All-Star Author Akron Posts:772 Points:371,610 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 3:28:10 AM Ignore 2bigtanks Report Abuse New toys for everyone!
Amplion Champion Author Oregon Posts:6,916 Points:1,891,785 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 3:10:44 AM Ignore Amplion Report Abuse BIG BROTHER & STATE FARM ARE WATCHING YOU !!!!
Pozole Champion Author Portland Posts:9,754 Points:1,620,270 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 2:54:21 AM Ignore Pozole Report Abuse ...I'm sure this is a mandate of the insurance lobby...we are controlled by big biz...
tessnlu Champion Author Missouri Posts:24,536 Points:1,133,940 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 2:48:30 AM Ignore tessnlu Report Abuse This is a good idea. People are not honest when it comes to their mistakes. It's always someone else's fault. This will make the truth come out!
MusicalMan7 All-Star Author Ohio Posts:597 Points:93,430 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 2:30:39 AM Ignore MusicalMan7 Report Abuse @BJWI - That is a bit naïve and oversimplified. I assure you that you break laws every single day that you don't even know exist. It's sort of like the argument from the cops, "If you have nothing to hide, what's the harm in consenting to a search of your trunk?" Because it's still Free America last I checked and I have a Fourth Amendment right to keep you from being snoopy, that's the harm. Same here. Just because a thing CAN be done and seems harmless doesn't mean it ought.
SBlouch Champion Author San Antonio Posts:8,828 Points:1,883,375 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 1:35:54 AM Ignore SBlouch Report Abuse So, I guess the best thing to do is drive the speed limit. Black boxes have been used by lawyers since they were first put in a few select cars. Now they are in all vehicles and lawyers just love them if the a representing the client who is suing the person who caused the crash.
BJWI Champion Author Milwaukee Posts:6,546 Points:762,015 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 1:22:04 AM Ignore BJWI Report Abuse Not too concerned about it - it is funny, when you don't break the law, you really don't worry about these kinds of things.
MN1 Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:3,489 Points:676,940 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 1:13:20 AM Ignore MN1 Report Abuse Big Brother is watching and the lawyers LOVE it.
alterman156 Champion Author New York Posts:7,620 Points:1,583,275 Joined:Dec 2008	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 1:02:31 AM Ignore alterman156 Report Abuse The black box could tell police officers otherwise.
Point__man Champion Author Raleigh Posts:4,467 Points:903,445 Joined:Oct 2010	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:44:43 AM Ignore Point__man Report Abuse insurance companies and lawyers will love these new toys ;)
Michael29644 Champion Author Greenville Posts:5,134 Points:869,025 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:36:38 AM Ignore Michael29644 Report Abuse "These boxes track everything. Where your are, where your going and who owns the data? How will it be used?" ExplorerWA, They do NOT track where you are, or where you are going. Please stop spreading disinformation. "Is lying to a police officer a crime?" buckets42, In my state, generally no. The only exceptions I can think of are falsely reporting a crime and falsely identifying yourself to an officer when asked.
northeast2 Champion Author New York Posts:3,849 Points:1,007,200 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:34:27 AM Ignore northeast2 Report Abuse "Getting the data sometimes can be a hassle. A company called Bosch is the only one that sells the hardware and software that allow investigators to download the data, and even then, only from certain automakers. If it’s not available, investigators have to get a warrant and go through the manufacturer’s legal department." Aww, aren't the Fourth and Fifth Amendments pains in the neck?
megadiesellv Champion Author Atlanta Posts:1,474 Points:503,585 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:30:12 AM Ignore megadiesellv Report Abuse Soon we'll have to ride bicyles.
gus8441 Champion Author Baltimore Posts:2,239 Points:468,250 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:16:33 AM Ignore gus8441 Report Abuse agree with davenles
cheapchickKY Champion Author Lexington Posts:4,154 Points:823,015 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:13:42 AM Ignore cheapchickKY Report Abuse And right after checking the black box cell phones need to be checked. Black boxes have been used in aviation for years.
anascom Champion Author Hamilton Posts:1,593 Points:556,690 Joined:Feb 2011	Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:09:16 AM Ignore anascom Report Abuse might violate privacy policies!
feldos Champion Author Florida Posts:2,640 Points:562,650 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 11:41:48 PM Ignore feldos Report Abuse davenles...you are correct...a very slippery slope
mwc407 Champion Author North Carolina Posts:1,095 Points:574,885 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 11:41:43 PM Ignore mwc407 Report Abuse It's logical (with modern electronics) that your car could record data in the event of an accident. While some people may oppose the use of the technology / data, I bet they would change their mind if a loved one were seriously injured or killed in a auto accident and the black box helped determine who was truly at fault in the accident.
davenles Champion Author Texas Posts:3,331 Points:744,635 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 11:24:38 PM Ignore davenles Report Abuse A slippery slope.
dorisntx Champion Author Fort Worth Posts:2,079 Points:664,155 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 11:10:40 PM Ignore dorisntx Report Abuse no black boxes.
leraar2 Champion Author Massachusetts Posts:3,894 Points:813,430 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 11:02:38 PM Ignore leraar2 Report Abuse ban black boxes.
ExplorerWA Champion Author Washington Posts:4,230 Points:823,000 Joined:Feb 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 10:45:50 PM Ignore ExplorerWA Report Abuse These boxes track everything. Where your are, where your going and who owns the data? How will it be used?
aquarinut Champion Author British Columbia Posts:1,630 Points:443,670 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 10:23:20 PM Ignore aquarinut Report Abuse @apiergallini Quite obviously didn't read second para. Objective data: Make the car manufactures PROVE that their data is valid when hitting a pothole, garbage, rock on road, deer, something thrown from pedestrian overpass, black ice, avalanche, mudslide, sudden flood, hurricane, earthquake or even a mud puddle. Until then.... eye witness' no matter how they see things, are the data "on the ground". Too many people look to computers, TV and movies to see how forensics are done. Give it a try... talk to ANY emergency responder about how accurate the media is on processing "hard" on scene evidence... @StArrow68 IPhone for accuracy???? LOL!!!!
Wanda127 Champion Author Florida Posts:2,565 Points:939,600 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 10:14:28 PM Ignore Wanda127 Report Abuse Accident data records wouldn't be so bad but several Insurance co.'s & the government want to do more. They want to put GPS's with speed & mileage tracking devices on your cars & will give you 5% disc. to add it to your car. The government I'm sure will do more with it if Obama has his way. [Edited by: Wanda127 at 4/29/2012 10:15:41 PM EST]
petrpuck All-Star Author Hamilton Posts:569 Points:438,635 Joined:Nov 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 10:11:24 PM Ignore petrpuck Report Abuse Who da thunk
ToolinIt Champion Author Colorado Posts:1,805 Points:910,385 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:46:55 PM Ignore ToolinIt Report Abuse Backwoods - a true statement that you posted. Sad, but true.
Cakes77 Champion Author Harrisburg Posts:5,280 Points:1,676,320 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:41:02 PM Ignore Cakes77 Report Abuse Nice article.
esq262 Champion Author Asheville Posts:2,998 Points:672,790 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:27:27 PM Ignore esq262 Report Abuse Too much.
PDQBlues Champion Author San Diego Posts:7,204 Points:1,474,075 Joined:Jan 2009	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:16:33 PM Ignore PDQBlues Report Abuse The Supreme Court recently ruled that you can be strip searched simply for being arrested on a suspicion. Never mind about conviction, you are now guilty before proven innocent. What's a black box in your car compared to a strip search for privacy?
Pete12 Champion Author Albany Posts:4,915 Points:1,658,945 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:07:28 PM Ignore Pete12 Report Abuse Do like you are supposed to do and you won't have a problem.
apiergallini Veteran Author North Carolina Posts:389 Points:249,955 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:06:41 PM Ignore apiergallini Report Abuse @tnfran @hoosierva When you're driving a vehicle on a public roadway, and are in an accident, you should have no expectation of privacy. @gizbo123 Recording data from a few seconds before and after an accident is nowhere near being in the same ballpark as putting cameras in our homes. You have no expectation of privacy in public. People can record you, take your picture, note that you were there, etc. As it is, red light cameras only take your picture if they detect you ran the light. But there wouldn't be anything illegal if they took everyone's picture, as long as citations were only issued to those who actually ran the light. @APlus @playtimeCLE There is no right to privacy. It's not in the Constitution, and it's not in any statutes that I'm aware of. As best I know, it was created in Roe v. Wade.@Van_Halen What are you talking about? Both lawyers get to see the same data, and both have the opportunity to spin it in their favor. That means that your lawyer can use the data to help you. You're against that? And obviously, the scenario you gave is possible, that you were hit before you could apply the brakes. So what? How does that go against installing data recorders? You could say the same thing in court 40 years ago - the lack of skid marks will show that you didn't apply your brakes. Also, an accelerometer won't tell how fast you were going - only whether and how fast you were speeding up or slowing down. Nobody ever said that the wheel speed, engine speed, etc., would be used to determine you actual traveling speed. They can be used for other reasons, though - to show you accelerated into the accident, for instance. Maybe that you lost traction. Maybe that you jerked the wheel after being hit, not before you were hit, like you said. @buckets42 I think it depends on the circumstances. In general, you're allowed to lie to anyone, including police, though that could implicate crimes like fraud, false pretenses, etc., depending on the circumstances of the lie(s). I think, but am not sure, that it's a crime to make a false official statement to a police officer, which would include when he's conducting an investigation. It's absolutely a crime to lie under oath in court. Even if it's not a crime to lie to police, you still probably don't want to do that, because you'll either have to perjure yourself in order to maintain your story in court, or you'll have to admit that you lied, which will hurt your credibility, and ultimately, perhaps, your case. Once you've been shown in court to have lied about something, you'll be fighting an uphill battle to get anyone to believe anything else you said that would help your case. @aquarinut No they wouldn't. They can use the GPS data showing you were at place X at time Y if they want. But you can always rebut that by showing that that model is inaccurate, your particular unit is inaccurate, the location gets poor reception, etc. There aren't strict standards for many things in law. But why would you say the objective data - brakes, tire pressure, etc. - should be left out and we should only rely on witnesses? Witnesses are notoriously bad at recalling people and events. Besides, if the data exists, it can be subpoenaed, whether you say that you own the data in your car, or the manufacturer does, or whatever. Like you said about GPS, this data only reports the truth. There may certainly be other factors that are necessary to get the full picture (e.g. tires not making contact with the road), but the data doesn't lie - it just may need to be put in context. @doeslayersr Agreed, completely.
BackwoodsPundit Champion Author Richmond Posts:5,207 Points:1,026,740 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: Apr 29, 2012 8:59:36 PM Ignore BackwoodsPundit Report Abuse The police are being transformed from a group designed to protect and defend to becoming the front lines of a surveillance police state. We are not there, but we are well on the road. It is very sad. One can only be thankful that fascist and communist regimes of the past didn't have such technology at their fingertips. Our children and grandchildren won't be as fortunate.